Blondie,
That's great. I literally laughed out loud. The sad thing is that I can see a JW using that example to excuse the fact that a person who is practicing gross sin is appointed.
Doubting Bro
JoinedPosts by Doubting Bro
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34
Holy spirit my ass!!!
by unbeliever inmy mom called to tell me that my cousin made ms and how happy everyone is.
we got to talking about how the elders think they are led by holy spirit and crap like that.
it damn near killed me not to say anything but my cousin is a double lifer.
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Fuzzy Right-of-Way Rules Leads to Pathetic, Awkward, Theocratic Dork Fight
by Check_Your_Premises inapupi - idaho.
"there were watchtowers and osmond cd's strewn around everywhere" recalled the shaken resident marjorie spade, whose yard was the setting for a lame, sissy fight.
"i couldn't believe that in this day and age we still are fighting religious wars", she said in the aftermath of the flailing, ineffectual fracas.. apparantly the outbreak of faith-based nerd violence took place when two groups of youths approached eachother while out in their respective ministries.
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Doubting Bro
CYP,
That was great. Nice Buffett reference by the way.
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Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??
by Seeker4 ini'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).
and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.
people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!
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Doubting Bro
I'm still here and very much want to continue as a member. I've done way more reading than posting at this point. I think I understand the points skally & john are making. I also agree that it is a bit hypocritical for me to participate here when the company line says no. I've never told anyone what they can/can't do regarding the internet that I can recall. It's awkward for sure because I feel that I should always be honest. Yet, I'm not right now. And, it eats away at me. But, I NEED to be here, to learn, to research, to vent in order to figure out the right course.
I really debated whether to even let on that I am a current elder. The only reason I identified myself that way was to show lurkers that they aren't alone. You saw several current elders come forth. I'm sure all of us were unsure of the reaction we would get given all the terrible things the WTS & its appointed elders have done to folks. I'm ashamed of the way many are treated and thought that I could make a difference. Well, I know I can't make a difference at the KH (on a large scale) but maybe something I say here can help someone break free. Or, even more importantly, maybe something I learn here will help me help others in my family.
I was pleasantly surprised at the warm welcome I've been given. I also understand some of the more angry statements and realize they aren't personal. You're angry at the machine. At the moment I represent the machine (hopefully not for too long). I'm pretty thick skinned and pretty hard on myself. Nothing anyone says can be worse than the things I already think about myself.
Anyway, I hope to continue the conversation. Thanks again for all of your input.
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The Second Emergent Type of "Faders"
by metatron ini was having an interesting conversation with another witness who's nearly faded away.
he made an interesting point that corrected me and.
touched my heart.. i wondered aloud if there was "any limit to how stupid the organization could collectively become".
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Doubting Bro
LongHairGal,
I completely agree with you. One of the big underlying problems is the entire works based belief system. If you perform certain works, then you're held up to the rest as an example to follow. Except the works aren't showing "fruits of the spirit" they usually involve spending more than the average amount of time in field service and handling various other duties.
Also, the pioneer title is one I've never been able to figure out. I understand the Bible sets out qualifications for elders/ms. Of course the WTS true to form totally bypasses those qualifications by setting their own (how much time do they spend in fs? do they report a "family study", etc). But, where on earth does the justification for the pioneer title come from? I must have missed that one!
If everyone focused on showing concern for each other instead of judging each other by their "activity", they'd be a whole lot better off.
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Were YOU A Mindless Witness?
by minimus inwere you on automatic pilot?
did you consider yourself a "stepford" family member?
did you do everything you were told to do, automatically??
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Doubting Bro
I went through various stages. As a teenager, I went through the motions, did enough to keep folks off my back but wasn't hard core. In my early 20s, I was pretty hard core and promptly got "promoted" to a MS. I kept that up and was "promoted" again. Yet, despite my seeming hard core outlook, when it came to beliefs, I secretly harbored doubts. Some big, some small. Once I was an elder for a while, I started wanting reform. This lead to me moving from the hard core side to a more liberal position. Recently, I've come to the conclusion that reform isn't possible.
I was always careful when discussing doubts to only talk to folks about things that the WTS said they weren't sure on (which admittedly isn't much). I don't think I ever raised suspicion. Sometimes, I wish I could go back and erase everything I've learned because I'm concerned about the potential family issues that may be looming. But, I still believe in God and when I look at that new tract and see the "identifying marks of false religion" I can't help but notice that JWs fit every category. So, I'm coming to the realization that in order to be loyal to Jehovah, I'm going to need to leave.
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The Second Emergent Type of "Faders"
by metatron ini was having an interesting conversation with another witness who's nearly faded away.
he made an interesting point that corrected me and.
touched my heart.. i wondered aloud if there was "any limit to how stupid the organization could collectively become".
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Doubting Bro
I tend to agree as well. There isn't one witness that doesn't know of some horror story involving someone in the congregation either 1) engaging in outrageous behavior (see the thread on the drunk driving elder that killed someone) and/or 2) has been treated in the most unChristian manner possible by someone in the congregation (many times the elders or pioneers - the ones who are held up as examples to the flock).
I've even personally experienced this lack of love (probably for the first time in my life). It's disappointing even though I really don't believe anymore. I still have higher expectations for "true believers".
Apathy reigns. Many folks I've observed are simply going through the motions. It's pretty interesting to observe. Probably explains the depression problems within the org and general lack of happiness. Isn't LOVE the identifying mark of true worship? So, if you notice a lack of it, what does that mean?
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Disfellowshipping
by vanillamocha ini was recently in court for the domestic violence charges against my former (and still in excellent standing) spouse.
he is using all jws to say how he is such a wonderful person, etc - all total and complete lies as some of them are actual eyewitnesses to my abuse.
in his sworn statement, he says that jws do not disfellowship, do not shun, and that i am not disfellowshipped, but that all my "friends" won't talk to me because it is their choice.
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Doubting Bro
Would a scan from the elder book on disfellowshipping help? There are several places online that have it. http://www.reexamine.org/images/payattention.pdf
Start with page 87, Unit 5. It outlines the procedures and offenses for which judicial committees are to take action. Pay special attention to page 100 as it defends the DF process.
Unbelievable that someone would try to defend such a person.
Welcome to the board! You'll find much help and support here.
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Voting with their wallet
by SirNose586 inwhen i came here in may, i began to see phrases like "voting with their wallets" or "voting with their feet" in regards to declining contributions and declining attendance figures.
i think i am seeing the former in action..... last sunday i went to the local ca.
at the half they read the accounts report--aka, cough up that dough report--and there was a "$4,000 deficit.
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Doubting Bro
Right. That's because Bethel demands that it be done that way. Most folks aren't aware and at the very least, its misleading. No, take that back, its dishonest and greedy.
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Voting with their wallet
by SirNose586 inwhen i came here in may, i began to see phrases like "voting with their wallets" or "voting with their feet" in regards to declining contributions and declining attendance figures.
i think i am seeing the former in action..... last sunday i went to the local ca.
at the half they read the accounts report--aka, cough up that dough report--and there was a "$4,000 deficit.
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Doubting Bro
OTWO,
I know many brothers will break up an expense into several $400 projects that never need to get voted on.
Yeah, I've seen that suggested a few times. However, 5 of the 7 elders pitched a fit at the suggestion and the idea was never mentioned again. I was shocked that someone would even suggest such a dishonest approach. And another straw was added to the camel's back.
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Voting with their wallet
by SirNose586 inwhen i came here in may, i began to see phrases like "voting with their wallets" or "voting with their feet" in regards to declining contributions and declining attendance figures.
i think i am seeing the former in action..... last sunday i went to the local ca.
at the half they read the accounts report--aka, cough up that dough report--and there was a "$4,000 deficit.
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Doubting Bro
A couple of comments on this subject:
1) On a local level, contributions vary widely among congregations. I've notice that in some of the less wealth congregations, the contributions were higher than in at least one affluent congregations that I was in. I stopped contributing (other than a nominal amount towards local needs - lights, etc) a couple of years ago when I found out about some of the sexual abuse suits and the legal fees expended as well as the UN association. I also figured that distributing their literature for free and driving all over God's creation giving public talks was more than enough.
2) On a circuit level, you're right about the R&F not voting on anything financial. There is always a "business meeting" held by the elders (that bother showing up, probably about half where I am) in which the CO/DO/Bethel speaker expenses, and the CO apartment expenses are approved and the contribution to the WWW is also approved. What is interesting to me is that our circuit had decided that we would send the majority of any surplus to the Society. Well, that wasn't good enough. They wanted a set amount each time, even if it meant going into the circuit surplus to cough it up. Of course, that amount is added to the "deficit" and it usually gets taken care of.
By the way, those assembly halls generally cost more to "rent" than does a commerical building.
What I find even more interesting is that on a local basis, many congregations pass a resolution that the body can spend say 100-200 without a vote to handle misc things that come up, but anything more has to be voted on. I know bodies I've served with in the past have been pretty frugal with the congo money. Yet, in the circuit, the individual members NEVER vote on financial matters. That authority is completely ceeded to the elders.